April 9, 2009

Build Muscle Mass With Body Weight Exercises

I don't talk too much about building mass, since it really isn't the main focus of this site. That being said, I know there are quite a few readers who do want to add a bit of mass. I am going to talk about how to put on mass with nothing but body weight exercises. I don't care if you can do 80 push ups or 30 pull ups, here is a way gain size and make body weight exercises challenging again.
build muscle with body weight exercises
[I found a body weight routine that will even challenge people in peak condition...like this guy!]

Let Me Give Credit to Nick Nilsson…

Nick Nilsson is the guy who outlined this body weight workout. He has written numerous books and is probably best known for his work with Charles Staley on Escalating Density Training (a video course on gaining mass and definition at the same time by lifting multiple low rep sets with compressed rest periods). I haven't mentioned either of these guys on my site before, because the subject matter here is more focused on building strength and muscle definition without adding size…to get that slim "Hollywood" look. As far as mass building goes, these are the guys I recommend.

The Common Problem With Body Weight Training

As soon as I read this outline, I knew Nick had come up with a solution to a common problem. You see…the problem with something like push ups is that you quickly get too strong for them to be challenging. A set of 50 reps of push ups is high rep "endurance training". The problem is that even if you go to failure, isn't really hitting the muscle fibers with the most growth potential.

High Volume With Compressed Rest Intervals

A key to gaining mass is to aim for a high volume of work while lifting weight that is heavy enough to challenge the muscles. You also want to keep the rest somewhat brief in between sets to get the full pump in the muscles…this is the optimum condition to put on size quickly. Here is the solution that Nick came up with to get this done with body weight exercises.

As Many Sets of 3 Reps As Possible in 15 Minutes

This is done in a strategic way, which I will explain in a second. The reason he suggests 3 reps at a time is to limit fatigue in order to maximize training volume (sets and total reps). Both Charles and Nick believe that you should train muscles for output and not fatigue…which is why their programs build strength and mass, not just muscle mass. Too much fatigue is bad for building strength. They believe in a high volume of quality reps without hitting failure, which is a unique approach in the bodybuilding world (and why I dig their approach).

How the Workout is Structured

1) Pick one body weight exercise – Push Ups (as an example)
2) Do 3 reps and rest 10 seconds then 3 more reps…repeat
3) When it becomes tough to do 3 reps, extend the rest time to 20 seconds
4) When it becomes to tough to get 3 reps, extend rest time to 30 seconds
5) Keep doing this exercise for 15 minutes straight. As soon as it gets tough to complete 3 reps add another 10 seconds to the rest time in between sets.

Tips: Make sure to avoid failure on all of your sets, but push yourself. By avoiding failure, you are limiting fatigue and you will get in more sets and reps in the 15 minute period.

Other Tips for This Mass Building Routine

Nick recommends 15 minutes for back, chest, and quads…and 10 minutes for hamstrings, shoulders, biceps, triceps, calves, and abs. He recommends a 2-day split doing a total of 4 workouts per week. Day One back, chest, biceps, abs and calves. Day Two quads, hamstrings, shoulders, and triceps.

Note: You could certainly use this same method with weights as well. I'm imagining there are probably a few people who have a weight set at home that they are too strong for. Consider using this lifting method with those weights to get some good use out of them again.




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April 9, 2009

Kevin Geary said:

Interesting. I'm going to give this a try tomorrow and see what happens. I've never seen this approach before.

Izwan said:

Yeah, I like this approach and I reckon to use this technique in :-

BURPEES.

Sure give the full body work out with pleasure.

I do a similar workout where I will do a superset of 5 pullups, 5 dips, and 10 bodyweight squats (sometimes I throw in 5 kettlebell swings as well). Then see how many supersets I can get done in 20 minutes.

I'm going to give Nillson's approach a try though. It sounds like a great workout.

April 10, 2009

jon said:

rusty, i dont really get it. isnt edt the same as high rep training??? it says to get as many reps in in 15 minutes. isnt this training for muscular endurance? the only difference i see is that you do 3 reps rest 10 seconds and do this for 15 minutes. how is this different from doing 20 reps resting a couple of seconds and 20 reps again and resting for a few seconds and so on the 15 minutes???

Anthony said:

Definitely an informative and new approach. I don't know how much I could utilize it, but I really think it would be beneficial to a couple of friends of mine.

Great post Rusty!

Michiel said:

Great workout routine Rusty. I'm gonna give this a try in the next couple of weeks.
I also have another question on lifting technique. When you speak in your articles about lifting heavy weights and really build up tension in the muscles. You need to control your breathing to build up the tension, you have to slowly breath out when you put force in and do it otherwise on the negative fase. Now i have a problem when it comes to holding the breath, i seem to build up alot of tension so that my head turns red like a tomato. I don't think this is healthy and i try to avoid it, but i have it difficult to control it.
Can you give me some advice on that? I like to have good strength but without putting huge pressure on my veins.
Thanks alot
Greetz

pnw fitness said:

Sounds like something fun for tomorrows chest workout :)

Hey Rusty,

Yeah, I can see this being fairly effective. Just like with any training tool, using bodyweight and getting results is dependent on how you arrange your protocols. The great thing for your readers is that no matter how you do it, it's pretty hard to put on non-functional mass using the weight of your own body. By its very nature, bw is functional – you're moving your body in space.

And my contention has always been that a Functional Physique is a beautiful physique. In our book, my buddy Ryan and I introduce several ways to put bodyweight training together for strength and muscle mass (two of the five programs in the book).

This post has a good example of bodyweight exercise for strength development. Again, it's just one of many ways to organize your bwe for a given goal.

Thanks for another thoughtful post Rusty!

Cheers,
Adam

Al S said:

What type of bodyweight exercises can i do for biceps, shoulders, and hamstrings?

Helder said:

I've been doing something similar for sometime, as you know i take a lot of time training without going to the gym, it doesn't seduce as much as bodyweight exercises and outdoor training. I knew that to keep adding reps wouldn't do me any good, so i've started using a similar method to that one described in the post.

There are however a few points i would like to talk about. It's okay to sometimes go for high reps, specially with quads, look at speed skaters, it's very common for them to do very high reps like 100/300 reps. For the upper body it's also good from time to time, if you ask a gymnast to do push ups or pull ups you'll fall asleep watching him do it before he gets tired. These high rep workouts are good like i said from time to time to shock your muscles, tohelp you develop yourself in a more complete way, though i'm a big defender of low reps, but both ways are needed, one more than the other in my oppinion.

Another point that i want to talk about is using body positioning to make exercise harder, the method this post talks about is excellent, but there are more, and when it comes to body weight training our bodies adapt even faster, so we need a big arsenal of option to keep the workout challenging. Changing your body position and the workout tempos will bring more dificulty to any exercise, using again the push up as an example, the easier way to make the exercise harder is to start placing your feet each time higher, the purpose eventually will be for you to be able to perform handstand pushes, that will be a huge proof of strenght you can believe me.

Also a closer grip will make push ups a lot harder too.

The method shown is this post is also an excellent way of getting in shape, to improve resistance.

Add this workout with some sprints and everyone can believe the results will be very good, and surprising too

Cody said:

Thanks for addressing this! I was one of those guys who just happened to email you about this very subject this past week. Going to give it a try!
Nate: That sound like a Crossfit w/o.
Jon: Good question, I look forward to Rusty's response.

Patrick said:

Hey Rusty,
I like this strategic approach to pushups and I will give it a try. When I do pushups I like to slow the movement down to where Im holding the contraction for 5 sec at top and bottom, it makes pushups more difficult the slower it is performed and you can't do as many, this works well with pullups and dips as well. I'm sure you see it all the time, most people go way to fast on there movements no matter if its weights or bodyweight and pay no attention to technique. Great post, its always good to learn new strategies to implement or add to the toolbox.

Terry said:

This sounds worth a try. I've never heard of it before and there are some muscles I'd like to build a little.

Good show. Thanks for sharing this.

3ller said:

checked out the edt page. If pavel says its good, you better believe it :)
Hey Rusty, sorry i havent commented in a while. But let me say congrats. Your site is really starting to take off and your ebook was awesome.
Hoping for more reports and posts

cheers

Scoth said:

Hi all,

I read Nic's original article a bit ago and the reason he gave for using lower reps was to maintain the quality and explosivity of the movement to target the fast twitch fibres.
This is obviously different to the tension type reps Rusty normally encourages but might be a nice option to add some variety.

Thank you for some great information!

Jason G said:

I think this is an interesting technique and could be tweaked for strength training. By performing the pushups very slowly, like Patrick was saying, you could cause enough tension in the muscles so three to five reps is hard. For example you could spend ten seconds lowering your body and ten seconds raising your body. From there you can do the exercise as described above(continuous sets until fatigued). This would be a good technique when you are traveling, but I would not use it as a long term replacement for resistance training.

Wazzup said:

Interesting.. I might give this a try next week. I was looking for something light, but yet hard.

Patrick said:

I think Jason G knows exactly what i mean by 10 seconds lowering and raising on the pushups, and he brings up a very good point, that this would be good shock treatment to your body when you are traveling and or can't get to the free weights. the combination of slow movement and continuous sets until fatique as Jason described should be quite effective when used occasionally.

Mel said:

Excellent write-up, however I use bodyweight movements like pushups/dips/etc. mainly for strength endurance and conditioning, but as a mass gainer I never thought to include them. If you remember from my last comment I stressed about feeling "overtrained" which may have led you to believe that I once was fat and was dieting and exercising to lose weight, however this was not the case. I was lean to begin with, I just wanted to workout to get stronger and better conditioned — but I am exhausted now.

I was just wondering how you feel about taking a whole week off of training? Something that I'm considering at the moment, to let my whole nervous system repair itself as I've never really given my body the adequate rest during my whole year of excessive training. I also have a fast metabolism, so maybe in conjunction with all the training I've been doing, my food intake wasn't up to par which might have been putting a damper on my sex drive/energy.

So, what is your stance on a whole week off of training? Good or bad? I'm just afraid to lose lean body mass. Thanks

April 11, 2009

chuck said:

another question about the abs.. the only workout you recommend is plank so shall i just hold the plank for 3 counts or seconds or otherthing…just curious can you make an example. that will be kind of you

admin said:

Kevin,

Give it a shot and tell me what you think.

Izwan,

Burpees are brutal. It is funny that one of the most effective exercises was something we did back in Junior high. You will prbably be sweating like a pig if you do this for 15 minutes.

Nate,

Your approach looks good. Give this a shot and see how it feels. Doing the same exercise back to back will probably break down the muscles a bit better if you are aiming for mass.

Jon,

A bit different. You can generate stronger contractions when hitting 3 reps at a time. Also…you do this a bit differently than my typical recommendations…do 3 explosive reps at a time.

Anthony,

Yeah…I probably won't use it at this time either, but it is a good method to keep in your bag of tricks.

Michiel,

I don't recommend holding your breath. Breath naturally…and breath out when you are in the positive portion of the lift. Holding your breath may help a bit, but is dangerous in my opinion.

pnw,

Yeah…should work well…especially for chest.

Adam,

Good point…your body won't get too big if you just use mainly body weight training. It builds a natural amount of muscle. Thanks for the links. It is cool that people can build strength, mass, and cut body fat with nothing but body weight exercises. It is a good skill to know, so you can stay in great shape on vacations or away from home.

Al,

There are a ton of options. Go to Youtube and type in "body weight exercises". Just find one that works best. For back and biceps it certainly helps to have a chinup bar.

Helder,

Good points and I agree that it is good to go high rep every now and then. I go high rep when I'm doing body weight circuits for fat loss and it works well. Also great tips on changing positioning to increase the challenge. Thanks for these great recommendations!

Cody,

I think you may have given me the idea to write this post. About half of the posts I write are from ideas I get in the comment section of the site.

Patrick,

Your slow method will work well. This is the way I do most of my lifting. To mix it up you may want to do 3 explosive reps of push ups. It will be easy at first, but it will become tougher and tougher a few sets in.

Terry,

Nick Nilsson and Charles Staley have quite a few good techniques. I don't like the main site that they do guest posts on (won't name it), but I do really appreciate their knowledge.

3ller,

Thanks for coming back, buddy. You were reading and commenting on my site when it was just a few dozen visitors per day…now I have days that top 8,000. I really appreciate it that you were active when very few people knew about my site. I believe it is the regular readers, not me, that makes this site fun to read. Yes, Pavel claims that EDT is the best muscle building program on the internet. If I wanted to gain mass I would implement this type of training for at least part of the year.

Scoth,

Thanks for pointing that out. I should add that into my post. You guys are always helping me out…appreciate it!

Jason,

I agree with you. I think learning how to gain strength with body weight exercise is a great skill to perfect. My future plans include 2-3 month trips to far off places like Costa Rica. I am trying to learn the skill of getting great workouts without equipment. I am a ninja master of getting good workouts in the gym, but that isn't going to do me any good if I'm living on the beach for a few month…far from any type of equipment.

Wazzup,

This will be a good thing to try to switch things up.

Partick,

It should work well.

Mel,

I take a full week break at least once every 6 months. It does wonders. Even if you lose a tiny bit of mass (which isn't likely), you will gain it back in a week or two. The great thing about taking a break is that you can't wait to finally go back to the gym. With a renewed enthusiasm you will get better results in the long run. So…I think it is a great idea.

Chuck,

I know Nick's program mentioned abs, but I wouldn't do abs in this manner. I don't see a need for adding mass to abs. Just a couple 2 minute plank holds will do the trick.

Rusty

Done Emmerson said:

Hi Rusty

I have a question about Pilates – is that just a waste of time – or would it be a good way tone muscles? (for woman that is)

Thanks a lot
:o )

Scott said:

Fitness BlackBOARD is gonna be Epic!

April 12, 2009

chuck said:

another question rust.. i just finished reading edt and i have some thoughts…. in your site you recommend training with heavy weights, but in nick's book he mentioned that you cant get fatigued with the first few sets, the problem is if you are using heavy weights you should probably get fatigue by the first set, so please give me your 2 cents rusty. thanks

Blake said:

Hey Mel,

Taking a whole week off is a great idea. In fact it's necessary every once in a while. The body needs it, and you will usually come back refreshed and even stroger than before. Its good to take a break from training every 8-12 weeks.

Rusty,

Great post. I'll be trying this one out. I really love using compound bodyweight exercises, but have also been looking for a way to gain some mass. Thanks for th great site.

Rambodoc said:

Rusty:
Why not a post on single leg workouts, and how they benefit specific parts of the body and correct weaknesses?

April 13, 2009

Matt said:

That's a great article rusty and is a technique I have used to great effect for a while now with some of my clients who like to train outdoors.

Just wanted to add further fuel for the fire on this technique.

admin said:

Done,

Pilates is not effective for weight loss. It simply doesn't burn enough calories or jack up your metabolism. It is better than nothing, but nowhere close to Interval work.

Scott,

I need to update Fitness Blackboard. I am a bit behind. (In case people are wondering. People who download the Supplement Conspiracy, get to be on my exclusive Newsletter list…Fitness Black Board).

Chuck,

Heavy weight with low reps won't fatigue the muscles…especially if you stop 1-2 reps short of failure. I recommend 5-6 sets of 3 reps with a weight you can do 5 times…or 4-5 sets of 5 reps with a weight you can do 6-7 times.

Blake,

Thanks for commenting. I enjoy reading what you guys have to say. Give this routine a try.

Rambodoc,

Good point. I should do something along those lines.

Matt,

Glad to hear of someone who has tried this with good success.

Rusty

pnw fitness said:

I did this Saturday with decline push-ups.

1.) At least on this first workout, it was a bit hard to focus with stopping/and starting every 10 seconds. I looked at a timer as to not cheat. I feel 15 would have been better in preparing the following set for cleaner form.

2.) I didn't fatigue enough to tack on more rest time (almost in the last minute). Am I missing something?

I think the next workout I'll do declines with tall PU stands and maybe some added weight.

I did feel satisfied when it was over.

keith said:

hey rusty,
great site i was wondering what is your take on eating bannanas. Many people consider them as a simple carb and it is a little higher on the GI index, but its still a fruit so is it healthy? Would it be ok to eat them daily if im trying to lose weight. Thansk.

Body weight exercises are so effective and so overlooked. I find that most clients like to turn away from machines since they are "scary" looking.

April 14, 2009

Nate - Fit-Life Online said:

Gave this workout a try with regular push-ups.

I actually did 20 minutes instead of 15 (on accident, basically), and even then I only ended up extending my rest time to 20 seconds for the last few minutes. More than anything I found myself bored during this workout. Constantly looking at my watch, and the stop/start nature of it started to get a little old.

I will say, however, that the following day I was experiencing quite a bit of soreness in my chest. So this workout must have done something right.

I might give this workout format another try with pull-ups.

chuck said:

the original edt workout concept:

Here is how EDT works. Take two antagonistic muscles for each workout such as the quads and hamstrings. For example, lets use squats and stiff-legged deadlifts to illustrate. Go back and forth between squats and stiff-legged deadlifts for as many sets as you can in a designated time period such as twenty minutes. Charles refers to this twenty-minute period as a "PR Zone." Choose a training load that you can complete ten times with solid form and do multiple sets of three to five for as many sets as possible in each "PR Zone."

While training to failure should be avoided, feel free to take your final sets to the limit in order to achieve as many reps as possible. Just do not compromise form to do so. Keep the rest breaks short in between each set and only rest as long as you need. I recommend that you use a stopwatch to stay on track. Make sure to take advantage of a training journal and record the number of total reps that you complete for each exercise after each "PR Zone."

For example, if you completed forty total reps on squats with 315lbs, your goal at the next squat workout is to achieve a minimum of forty-one reps. As long as you are doing more reps at each workout, you will make progress and increase strength and size. Here is an example of an EDT program that I tried with kettlebells:

Note: Choose a training load that you can complete ten times with solid form and do multiple sets of three to five for as many sets as possible in each "PR Zone."

space said:

Great Post !
I do Bw exercices on every trip away from home + gym.

But I still have one question about abs: I agree with you that mass building must not be the aim, but do you propose any specific exercise to underline (or "dig") the separation line crossing the belly button ?

Oh and one more: how to build nice shoulders without developong traps (I hate them, they get you triangular instead af square and no bodybuilding trainer can understand what I'm talking about!)

I'm interested in the answers of everybody!
Once again I love your real life muscle blog approach ! Keep it up!

Hey Rusty,
I am nearing my fat loss goal and believe I only have a week or two left. My ultimate goal is to get into a maintenance mode where I have no more fat to burn and can concentrate on holding this leanness for a long period of time and building muscle density through strength training. However I do feel my shoulders and triceps could use a bit of size. I am content with the muscle in my back biceps and chest and would like to continue to train them for tone. Is it possible to train triceps and shoulders for mass while training back, bi’s and chest for tone. Once I achieve my desired mass in my shoulders and tri’s I can then train only for tone and density.
I have seen you recommend Pavels mass routing as well as others. Can you recommend an exercise plan to attain some mass in these two muscle groups while continuing the muscle tone lifting routine you gave me? Also will I have to eat in a calorie surplus in order to achieve this. Maybe eat in a surplus on days when I lift with these two muscle groups and eat maintenance on all other days? Thanks Rusty I am getting extremely close to my desired physique and have you to thank. I want to attain this physique for not only myself but for the thousands of overweight and obese people struggling to make a change. I want to prove to them that it’s possible to not only lose the weight, but also to take to the next level and look amazing. It just takes hard work, patience, and determination.

DR said:

Rusty,

I have been a big fan of Staleys EDT for years and years.

Nick's program looks like it should be worth an excrutiating workout or two. I would be curious to hear back from some of your readers who try out Nick's workout.

Recently i have been using a similar method of training. I am almost finished with it and plan to switch to a lower intensity, higher endurance protocol for 3 weeks. but after that, i think i might give this program a shot.

If you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate some constructive criticism on the program I am just finishing. While, I am a natural endo/mesomorph, this program has been great for ripping off some of my "winter weight"

Here's a description of the program

April 15, 2009

Jay.Cee. said:

Hey,
I think this is great, but i would want to try it with some weights.
say im doing bicep curls.i still follow the same regime?

i do it for 15 minutes?how heavy is the weight supposed to be?

Alfredo said:

Hi: Interesting article, firdt time in this site.

I have never done exercise like that way. I will give it a try.

Thanks for the information

Hi Rusty,

The thing I love about this method is it's focus on form. So many exercisers have poor posture, internally rotated shoulders due to training with poor form.

I love your website, I'd love to know your methods for building it up so successfully! You've done so well!

Amelia

Greg said:

I love body weight exercises. I have even read suggestions that until you can manage X-number of body weight exercises you shouldn't even bother with a dumbbell. I don't agree with that, but there are some out there that do.

April 17, 2009

Janel said:

Rusty-

I love this workout! One of the things I don't like about getting in a "good workout" is that if I don't get nauseous (which I hate!), I don't feel like I worked out hard enough. This puts me in a lose-lose situation. The idea that I get to stop BEFORE it hurts and still have an effective workout that I can feel good about is amazing! (I prefer to workout light–I just do.) I've modified it for myself and right now I'm doing 10min of pushups, 10min of abs and 10min of lunges/squats. I'm putting together other bodyweight exercises I can do the full body workout with the 2 day split.

LOVE IT!!!

April 27, 2009

spen c. said:

sounds good to me, ive been doing body weight exercises for the past two months and i am progressivly getting stronger, but i am sure this will maximize my results and make the workouts less boring.

May 17, 2009

chuck said:

EDT is originally designed to use a weight that you can do 10 rep. i doubt if using bodyweight exercise will do any good. (although i tried with push up and i sore for 5 freakin days) remember to ice massage the muscle after you've done with the routine, as the author recommended it. and rest until your soreness disappear before your next routine!! YEAP, EDT is designed to be SORE. as the author point out: your gonna pay if you want fast result. you may try the russian bear method for mass too, without soreness

May 18, 2009

JR said:

This is a GREAT site….very addictive!

JR said:

I did this pushup workout 4 days ago…still sore…lol. I like the whole idea of not exhausting the muscle by doing 3 reps per set, plus you can maintain perfect form with full ROM…awesome!

May 28, 2009

gabe said:

(SORRY – WRONG EMAIL BEFORE) love this idea..BUT BUT BUT…how else do you isolate the other muscle groups with body weight moves…the push up is a no-brainer for the chest…but what about everything else??? thank you so much – peace

June 17, 2009

Tony G said:

I tried this workout doing 15 minutes of pull ups, 15 minutes of push ups, and finishing off with 15 minutes of sit ups. I kept my rest for 10 seconds the entire time and did 3 reps each time. I used push up bars for the push ups, using a full range of motion to try and make the workout harder. The only part that started to get hard was the pull ups. Maybe I'm just a beast or have great genetics. One thing I can say though is that it did produce a great pump, especially in my chest. Not a bad pump up workout to do back stage for any of you bodybuilders out there…

December 17, 2009

Sonny said:

Hey Rusty,

great post mate. I read this post on EDT and actually mentioned it to a friend who tried it. He mentioned that in between supersets you have a meal (protein and carb) and then you perfrom another superset.

I was wondering what your thoughts on this was as im following your reccomendation of not eating for 4 or so hours before working out and then waiting 1-2 hours to eat after the workout.

I would like to put on thickness, density as in have that thick muscle look that still when flexed it has that muscle tone.

Currently i just started the E2E program and also do heavy sets for low reps. The reason i was interested in the EDT program is because I want to increase my arm size as its the lagging body part. Is the EDT way to go or stick with what im doing.

So much information out there and much of it contradicts, im not really sure what to follow.

My goal is to decrease my body fat %, for some reason my fat seems to gravitate around my abs and chest. The rest of my body is quite muscular, except my arms. So while trying to increase my arm size im also looking to torch body fat.

As far as training im doing 1 day on 1 day off. The ON days i do heavy sets for low reps concentrating on arms but maintaining back, shoulders, chest followed by 15 mins HIT. The OFF days i do exercises like farmers walk, dumbell swings, barbell throws, planks, renegade rows, burpees, etc for a circuit done 3 times followed by 30 mins of kickboxing as a steady-state cardio session. I do take 1 day completely off.

Any help or tweaks in my diet or routine is much appreciated. Apologies for the long post.

Sonny

January 4, 2010

Patrick said:

Hey Rusty,

Thank you for posting this article. I greatly appreciate it, this will help me develop a new workout system for me. I have read other articles that you posted and it is really interesting. I will definitely use FBB as your reference fitness site. I have something to ask you and give me some advice for what I'm doing.

I developed a workout my self for seven days, Sundays and Saturdays are my Cardio Days to lose additional fat. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesdays are bodyweight exercises with the required structured you mentioned ( 3 reps, 10 secs and continue for 15 mins). Then Thursday and Friday are the same thing, but this time I've added the 3 second count to do the actual exercise properly with better form for shock resistance, plus the same resting time. Is this a safe workout for me to do?

Thank you very much Rusty and sorry for the long post.

Patrick.

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